Fleur Heyworth
Hello, I'm Fleur Heyworth from the International Gender Champions Secretariat in Geneva. Today I am delighted to speak to Gender Champion and Chief Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court in IGC's Den Haag hub, Karim Ahmad Khan. Before being appointed chief prosecutor in February 2021, Karim Ahmad Khan held distinguished positions as Assistant Secretary General of the United Nations and special adviser and head of the UN investigative team for the promotion of accountability for crimes committed by Daesh or ISIL, in Iraq. He has also gained extensive experience by working with international tribunals, including for Yugoslavia, Rwanda, Lebanon, and Cambodia. So welcome, Karim. Thank you very much for taking the time to record this podcast with us.
Karim Ahmad Khan
Thanks so much for having me. It's a great pleasure in fact to be on your podcast.
Fleur Heyworth
So let's start with the question concerning IGC's core work and priority namely the gender based violence pledge, which IGC adopted in January of this year and all champions are committing to take action against gender based violence, sexist attitudes and behaviours. I understand that during the last decade, thanks to the action of the previous prosecutor Fatou Bensouada, fighting against impunity for gender based crimes has become a central priority for your court. From this point for you, why is it so important for the office of the prosecutor to ensure accountability for gender based crimes? And how do you plan on advancing what has been done so far?
Karim Ahmad Khan
Well, it's central because the court is committed to international justice, it's committed to protecting those that are oppressed, that suffer, and those that don't have a voice and have felt denuded from oppression, bullying, discrimination, and sexual violence. So it manifests itself in two ways. Firstly, the workplace culture of the office needs to be one in which gender rights, equality, respect, diversity are respected. We can't preach justice and gender equality in the courtroom and not practice in the office. So we've taken a lot of steps. And we're taking steps in terms of trying to improve the workplace culture, to make sure that agenda view gender equality is practiced, not just preached. And that's a real priority of mine. And together with members of the office, we're trying to move the office in an even better direction. And then of course there're the key issues of our core mandate in terms of genocide or crimes against humanity or war crimes. And we see throughout history that the most vulnerable, those that are viewed as being the weakest, are particularly targeted, whether that's children or women. That's how very often we see raping used as a weapon of war, we see that misogyny and bullying and stereotypes regarding gendered roles manifest themselves on the battlefield in many ways, whether it's slavery, sexual slavery, conscription, and a whole variety of different matters. And we need to make sure the law is not theoretical, it's applied to real life situations when it comes to human trafficking, and exploitation. So we need to make sure the law is relevant to the dynamics of conduct that we see today. We learn from the lessons of the past, and the law has to be ultimately felt by people that need it the most. And I think this is why we're trying to change our processes to uphold these fundamental principles and gender, you know, agenda and approach and protecting and prioritizing sexual or gender based crimes is part and parcel of it. And if we don't do it, we're not going to be respected. We're not going to be fulfilling our mandate.
Fleur Heyworth
Absolutely clear reasons to do it. And yet, it's so hard, we see that there is still impunity, and that there have been challenges. I know that you've developed the policy paper on sexual and gender based crimes, a clear example of the court making groundbreaking progress in this area. But there are still challenges. What do you see as being the challenges of incorporating this into legal action and work and overcoming them through your mandate?
Karim Ahmad Khan
Well, the first thing is to articulate the need. And there's been significant movement in that direction over the last 15 years, 20 years, maybe because of the accumulated jurisprudence and experiences of the ad hoc tribunals for the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda, the pivotal cases of the special court for Sierra Leone, and of course, the work of the office and the International Criminal Court. We have identified policy papers. You mentioned, for example, the policy paper on sexual and gender based crimes, but the challenge now is to operationalize it. We have a policy but we need to implement it even better. And this is an issue that requires us to learn. It requires every investigator, man and woman, every lawyer, man and woman, to feel that they own and they have responsibility for properly addressing these crimes that are underreported and one has to roll up one's sleeves, and engage with those communities, become aware of red flags, and collect evidence that can then be analyzed and stress tested, that can then inform decisions about whether or not charges should be preferred. But that can't happen at the last moment, it needs to happen right at the beginning, at the preliminary examination stage and the stage of investigation. So we're trying to change the processes to entrench an obligation to have an agenda view and prioritize sexual gender based crimes along actually with crimes against children. These are my two real priorities. And very often they're conflated, which is a shame very often children are conflated. With sexual gender based crimes, we need to view them separately, and as distinct crimes and make sure the architecture can ensure we discharge our responsibilities to them. And then, of course, because of stigma, the court doesn't operate in a vacuum, all around the world, whether it's in Asia or Africa or in Europe, unfortunately, if there is an allegation of sexual violence, it's difficult for people to speak up. It is the type of crime that goes right to the heart of an individual's identity, to who they are, what they perceive themselves to be, and how they are viewed. It is difficult dealing with very often sexual crimes, to talk about it to talk about the most private, intimate issues with the realisation you're going to be questioned. And we have to show that the processes of law can give protection. Accused can't, for example, directly question witnesses, there is voice distortion and facial distortion, ability to give remote interviewing, and trying to protect and respect the integrity of the individual. But we have to overcome those issues. And we need to also do a good job publicly, to make it clear, and I did this in Iraq, you know, with religious leaders as well, that generally everywhere in the world, stigma should not attach to the victim, it should not attach to those that are already have suffered, and that have been targeted. Stigma should rest upon those that are the perpetrators that are approved as such by independent judges in courts based on evidence. And it is about changing the narrative and putting the blame, putting where it belongs, and applauding those that speak up. And those that speak out as heroes because that's what they are. It is difficult, it's very easy. And I understand it completely those that keep quiet, that find that they've been violated once they don't want to be violated, again, to say we don't want to engage. But we also need to try to say, look, the court processes now are flexible. We are trained, the lawyers and the investigators of my office are sensitive. And there are processes in which we can make sure to the extent possible that we reduce the risk of retraumatization. We have excellent psychologists, we have a multidisciplinary approach, we will adapt our processes, wherever possible to the needs of the witness, as opposed to the witness having to adapt themselves to the court processes based upon some albeit with some overarching legal requirements, you know, and the authority of the judges. So the law is wonderfully flexible. These are the type of tools we need to do to engage with victims and witnesses. And collectively, if we are willing, if we are trained, if our eyes on the ball, hopefully we will get more individuals willing to speak out and realizing by doing so, they're not stigmatized, but they are heroes, and they should be received as such by their communities and, regardless of that to themselves, because we have these protective measures in place as well.
Fleur Heyworth
Your words will surely bust some myths and fears of many who are listening to this podcast around prosecution. So thank you so much for sharing all the progress that has been made and that continues to be made. You mentioned at the beginning, that part of your endeavour, and during your mandate is to practice, not just preach, and the organizational culture is a key part of that. And it's a key part of your IGC commitment to develop and implement a strategy of gender equality and workplace culture. So I'd wondered if you could highlight a few of the areas that you think need to be changed in terms of the culture and any challenges or successes that you want to share with fellow champions who are also endeavouring to improve a mainstream culture within their organizations.
Karim Ahmad Khan
This is the moment when we all have to embrace change. And in a way, it's the easiest moment to implement change, because we've had so much discussion in the public space for the last some years in terms of whether it's me too, whether it's in terms of racism, or conscious unconscious bias. Nobody can say they're not aware. What the court has done as a whole amongst all three organs, the presidency, the registry and the office, the court has appointed a gender focal point in terms of the work culture. I've also appointed within my office, the Office of the Prosecutor, a gender focal point that will work within our office, but in tandem with the court-wide focal point to make sure we mainstream these discussions, and we are aware of conduct that is unacceptable, and also from unacceptable, all the way down to undesirable. I've also appointed a workplace panel of independent experts from outside the office that has just issued a report I had a town hall just I think it was yesterday, or the day before with all my staff in which this workplace panel report was shared. And this also become public in due course, and it doesn't make it particularly easy to read. And of course, one can say one is washing dirty laundry in public, but we have to put in the spotlight, the lived experiences of staff, and only if we hear that will we be able to put forward the changes and the measures to improve things. So it requires partnerships, it requires staff to have the confidence of leadership, for the leadership to discharge their responsibility. And then for staff, every individual to realize they can make a difference. And that difference can be positive, it can be negative. If we can lift people up, we can understand somebody's going through a hard time and offer a support, whether they're in our unit, whether a staff member is a line manager or not just that sense of empathy, that sense of understanding, it can make a big difference to people that are have been suffering with COVID. They've been suffering with loneliness and isolation and of course, the demands of the job. And this idea that we have to make sure our processes work, but also everybody has a role to play in creating a safe, respectful workplace environment. And I think, you know, staff get it. And hopefully with training, but also a dialogue with discussion with inclusivity, we will do better in the future because of the discussions that we're having, and also the action that we are actually taking.
Fleur Heyworth
Thank you so much for shining a spotlight on not just the humanity that is needed within the courts, but the humanity that is needed in the workplace. The courage and the political will to ensure that the resources and the prioritization of these issues happens. And to do it in a way that's collaborative and engaging. I think that the responses you've given have embodied many of the feminist principles of leadership that one of our champions articulated recently, on the International Day of the girl. So thank you so much for taking the time to speak to us today. I think your words are inspiring to us, no doubt, and to many of our communities. So thank you so much.
Karim Ahmad Khan
Well, you're inspiring to me and to my office. And I think, you know, this initiative of the International gender champions. There are so many heroes out there, there's so many role models out there. And, you know, I get inspired by reading those stories. And I'm delighted to be in The Hague, I tried in my last mandate, a special adviser and head of unit had to join international agenda champions. And I was told I was in Baghdad, it wouldn't work. I tried to make a case that we have an office in New York, but I'm delighted in this new capacity, that I can join those heroes of mine and those wonderful men and women that really are trying to improve things. And I think that's really the purpose of it is trying to move things in a positive direction. So really, thank you for your leadership.