As the 52nd Session of the United Nations Human Rights Council begins, Hannah Reinl meets with Michèle Taylor, Ambassador and U.S. Permanent Representative to the Human Rights Council, and Naomi Kikoler, Director of the Simon-Skjodt Center for the Prevention of Genocide.
They discuss how to integrate - and amplify - the voices of women and girls into the Human Rights conversation, and what is needed to make multilateral fora more gender-responsive.
TRANSCRIPT
Hannah Reinl
Hello and welcome to our February episode of the IGC Podcast. I'm Hannah from the International Gender Champions Secretariat in Geneva. And as always, this time of year, International Geneva is just buzzing with activity around the United Nations Human Rights Council, which is holding its 52nd regular session from 27th of February to 4th of April. So I'm particularly delighted to be joined today by International Gender Champion and Ambassador and US Permanent Representative to the Human Rights Council Ambassador Michèle Taylor. Ambassador Taylor is a lifelong human rights activist and a strong advocate for women and girls in all their diversity. She has championed access to STEM careers, action to end violence against women, and equality for LGBTQIA+ persons. Prior to her current appointment, Ambassador Taylor served among other positions in leadership on the board of the US National Center for Civil and Human Rights, and held various roles and institutions promoting Holocaust remembrance and fighting antisemitism. Michèle, it's a pleasure to welcome you today.
Michèle Taylor
Thank you so much. I'm thrilled to be here.
Hannah Reinl
And you're not here by yourself. You have brought with you at Naomi Kikoler, who's the Director of the Simon-Skjodt Center for the Prevention of Genocide. The Center promotes worldwide action to prevent and halt acts of genocide or related crimes against humanity. Previous roles that Naomi held - and this is not an exhaustive list - include working for the Global Center for the Responsibility to Protect, Amnesty International Canada, and the UN Office of the Special Adviser on the Prevention of Genocide. Hello, and welcome to you as well, Naomi.
Naomi Kikoler
Thank you so much, Hannah. It's a pleasure to be with you.
Hannah Reinl
So both of you clearly have a very strong background in advocacy for human rights. But I'm still curious to know what specifically it was that has motivated you to take action for gender equality.
Michèle Taylor
So I surprisingly, maybe will start by saying that it was my dad. He raised me from a very young girl with the knowledge that my gender should in no way diminish my accomplishments or limit my opportunities. But of course, that isn't the world that we live in. And as I got older, and pursued my own STEM career, and really felt empowered to do all of the things that he taught me that I could do, I ran into quite a bit of discrimination that frankly, I wasn't entirely prepared for. And that started with my math, education. And just, I think, really, throughout my career saw so many obstacles, not only thrown in my way, but in the way of other women who wanted to pursue the things that they were looking to pursue. And because I had this ingrained belief, I felt that I had a responsibility to champion for women to have equal voices at the table.
Hannah Reinl
Well, that's great to hear that you managed to channel the negative experiences that you yourself went through to the advocacy for other women. Naomi, what about you?
Naomi Kikoler
You know, it's a really interesting question, because I think it's been probably a bit of an evolution in my own thinking, like Michèle, I was raised very much with the beliefs that I could do anything. And then in the course of my career I came to realize that there were many challenges that I faced, but that many of my fellow women and girls around the world face even more. I remember very early into my career, being one of the only women often in rooms for meetings that were happening at the UN in New York, sitting around a table and looking at 15 Security Council ambassadors. And at the time, there would be either only two or three women and just thinking, I really hope that in 10, to 20-30 years, this looks different. And we needed to accelerate that. But in the course of my work, and especially the work that I've done documenting crimes and documenting genocide in Iraq and elsewhere, I think that the consequences of not having a kind of gendered lens is really all too glaring. We know that there is such a blind spot, and there just hasn't been sufficient attention and understanding something that one of my colleagues, Sareta Ashraph, often refers to as the reality that gender permeates genocide. So that's really, over the last few years been a big motivation for me in trying to ensure that we have much more of an emphasis on gender equality in our own work.
Hannah Reinl
Thanks for sharing Naomi. And I do hope that you get to share a little bit more about the relationship between gender issues and genocide and atrocity prevention later on in this podcast. But maybe first to address the hot topic of the month, which is the 52nd session of the Human Rights Council that has just started. Michèle, In your case, I'm curious to hear what are the key gender-related issues that you hope to see discussed and bring up for discussion yourself during the session, and Naomi I know that you're not attending personally, but I would also be curious to hear from your perspective, what you hope to see on the agenda.
Michèle Taylor
So in every session, we strongly advocate for greater respect for the human rights and health of women and girls in all their diversity full stop. The 52nd session is no exception to that. But gender equality and gender equity are particularly essential as we're building back from the COVID-19 pandemic and tackling some of the world's most pressing challenges. That includes the climate crisis, economic disruptions, democratic backsliding, human rights abuses, conflict and other humanitarian emergencies - the litany of things, of course, that we cover at the Human Rights Council. And you know, we're still really on the heels of recovering from the COVID-19 pandemic. So the particular effects for women will be something that we'll focus on quite a bit.
I am personally, and the United States in particular, is deeply concerned about growing efforts to undermine gender language, and roll back progress on gender equality and women's rights, not only at the UN Human Rights Council, but throughout the UN system. But of course, we expect that to show up quite a bit at this next session. And so we're seeing efforts, very subtle efforts to, for example, replace the word gender with the word sex through resolutions like one on economic, cultural and social rights. And these efforts really seek to undermine not just the language on gender equality and women's empowerment, but the goal really is to create loopholes for states to avoid their obligations and responsibilities toward women and girls in all their diversity, and to elevate male and/or state control over bodies and lives. So we're particularly concerned about that.
And then, of course, you know, in some of the specific areas where gender related issues, particular countries, where that's a real concern for us, we'll be paying really close attention to Eritrea and Myanmar. We'll urge the international community to address the widespread and systemic human rights violations against women, including sexual violence, forced marriages, forced abortions. And then as you know, we are all paying very close attention to Afghanistan and Iran, we have so much work to do to address the serious human rights challenges facing women and girls, including gender-based violence, and then, of course, limited access to education, health care, political participation, and even the ability to work.
Hannah Reinl
Thank you, Michèle. Naomi, what about you?
Naomi Kikoler
I think there's a starting point, you know, the session will always provide an opportunity for the international community to express the ethos and the values that we all hold, dear. And I think with that in mind, one of the things that I'm looking for, again, is even more participation in by women and girls from civil society and the elevation of their voices in the conversations that are going to happen during the sessions, I think, is really important. And from an ethical perspective, I'm hoping that the human rights community continues to move in that direction. I think in terms of the broader thematic discussions, there has been such an increased focus and emphasis on establishing fact finding and investigative mechanisms. And within those conversations and reporting at the sessions, I think that there needs to be a continued focus on how to improve tracking and reporting for gender-based violence, and how to ensure that we are really advancing the use of best practices, and not re-traumatizing victims. And then in terms of particular countries of concern for us, we remain very, very concerned about the plight of women and girls in Afghanistan in particular, and the risk of persecution that they faced while also following very closely what's happening in Iran, in Myanmar, and in a number of countries where atrocity crimes are occurring or at risk. And where again, the experiences of women are often not receiving the level of attention that is required.
Hannah Reinl
I'm hearing the need for representation of women and girls in all their diversity in these kinds of fora. I'm also hearing the need for gender responsive and inclusive language. Michèle, one of your commitments, as an International Gender Champion is exactly to do that, to promote the integration of the voice and perspective of women and girls, in all their diversity into all aspects of policies, of actions, of any form of engagement at the Human Rights Council and beyond. So from your point of view, how gender responsive, would you say, are multilateral fora such as the Human Rights Council already? And what can champions such as yourself do to make them even more gender fluent?
Michèle Taylor
I want to go back to your initial question about motivation, because I do think, and we talked about this at a Gender Champions event that I held a couple of days ago, where you attended. I do think that the starting point always has to be that we have to understand why it matters. And, you know, if we leave half of the population, for example, out of the workforce, there are serious economic realities that are affected by that. And so I think that's something that we really have to pay attention to. But frankly, it's also a disservice to men. If men feel like they can only show up in certain ways and in certain places and the voices and perspectives of women aren't being shared, then that's a disservice to everyone.
So I wanted to make that point as we sort of talk about this, and why it matters for all of us to be Gender Champions. Gender responsiveness at the Human Rights Council is an ongoing challenge, as we know. And there are still efforts, as I said, to roll back language. But there have been significant efforts to integrate the voices and perspectives of women and girls into policies, actions and engagement at the council and beyond. And I'm personally committed to continuing those efforts, and more importantly, to highlighting those efforts, to publicly acknowledging and thanking the folks that are championing those efforts. And we will, of course work to hold states accountable for their obligations and responsibilities toward women and girls in all their diversity. But to make the council more gender fluent, Champions like myself can continue to advocate for the full range of women and girls human rights, and to work to promote gender equality, and all of the aspects of the council activities, including gender responsive language, which we have talked about in all of the resolutions and statements ensuring that women have meaningful participation in all of the council activities. And then of course, addressing gender-based violence and discrimination in all areas of human rights, which is an area that affects women and girls in all their diversity around the world.
Hannah Reinl
I do feel like the key word here is the meaningful participation part. It's something that we really worked towards at the International Gender Champions, as well as to not only look at participation in terms of numeric, or quantitative representation of women and girls, but also to really look at how much do they actually get to equitably share the space with other delegates? How much do they get to meaningfully participate in conversations and act the influence that they have or should have in these kinds of spaces.
Michèle Taylor
One of the other things that I'm doing, as you might have noted in our event the other day, is working really hard to create safe spaces where we can have spontaneous and honest conversation, which is very hard to do, frankly, in the Human Rights Council session where our comments are all very prescribed and limited to a very specific time, everyone comes with a very well crafted, prepared statement. But rarely do we have the opportunity to actually listen to one another. So I've been working to create safe spaces where men and women can come together and speak honestly, without prepared notes about how we can support one another in this work.
Hannah Reinl
Which is really so important. And you and I had this conversation before, but also as leaders, particularly, embracing the learning journey around these issues, and consistently trying to engage with the type of blind spots that you might hold as a leader yourself around these issues, and really giving a space on the platform for women and girls to share their perspective, their voice and for you to listen. Naomi for your domain of work more specifically, I be curious to hear to what extent you see gender mainstreaming already in genocide and atrocity prevention, and why in your opinion, it matters that we apply a gender lens to these issues.
Naomi Kikoler
That's such a great question. And I think, unfortunately, we still have a very long way to go when it comes to mainstreaming gender into our understanding of the phenomenon of genocide and crimes against humanity. And we really need to be working on advancing more gender competent and intersectional analysis, especially legal analysis into our understanding of these crimes. And maybe just as a starting point, you know, it's important to recognize that gender is not a synonym for just discussing crimes against women. We really need to have a more nuanced understanding of how crimes are committed against women and men, girls and boys, by reason of their gender, both for the purpose of advancing prevention and protection efforts, but also when it comes to accountability.
Now, having said that, all too often women and girls have not had the requisite attention paid towards them, especially as victims of genocide. And when we think about a historical context, some of the earliest crimes of the Holocaust were the forced sterilization of women deemed undesirable due to their race or religion. And when we look at sexual violence, it took decades, in the context of the Holocaust, for survivors and researchers to raise these crimes, that was often due to societal stigma and trauma. And as a result, they were not included in the prosecutions in Nuremberg. Now, over the past few decades, we've seen a growing understanding that women and girls face unique threats and have their own distinct protection needs. Tragically, in the past decade, we've really seen that acutely in the context of the experiences of the Yazidi community, but also the Uyghur community. In both instances to crimes were perpetrated and manifested in different ways.
But I think some things to take into account are the focus of genocidal perpetrators. There are specific strategies that are developed to target women and girls. When we think of the crime of genocide, and we think of how it's been codified, the crimes that are perpetrated from a gendered perspective, often fall into the category of acts that are not solely mass killings. There are acts of sexual violence acts that target the reproductive capacity of women, either through rape, through forced pregnancies, with the aim of bearing children who do not share the same identity, or through restricting birth, both with the intention to destroy community. In the context of China, for example, we've seen a deepening assault on Uyghur female reproductive capacity through forced sterilization, and forced IUD placements. And again, those are the types of crimes that we have to as an international community work to try to identify, understand, track, monitor, develop strategies to try to prevent, and also ideally protect women and girls from. But also to make sure that when there are cases brought forward in either domestic prosecutions or international prosecutions, that these crimes are actually prosecuted, and that we see justice and accountability for women and girls, as a result of this kind of very specific type of targeting and type of violence is perpetrated against them.
Hannah Reinl
We did do previous podcasts that are centered around exactly that topic, how do we prosecute these kinds of crimes, and especially with a view to the gender dimension that they have. So it's very hard to transition from talking around these issues, to then maybe trying to channel the conversation a little bit more into more positive concrete tools that we have at our hand to promote gender equality within these spaces, and regardless going to try to do it to end on a positive note. I know Michèle, and you also shared earlier, Naomi, that you are as well, you're both strong advocates for mentorship as a key means to promote gender equality and women's leadership in these spaces. So maybe you can tell us a little bit more about how exactly you think that mentoring can address systemic gender inequality, and help women and girls navigate the very many roadblocks that they might face in their lives?
Naomi Kikoler
Well, I feel very fortunate to be able to answer this question with Ambassador Taylor, here, because I actually see Ambassador Taylor very much as a mentor, and someone who has inspired me. And when I think about my own work, you know, I mentioned before those experiences very early into my career, being you know, one of the only women in a room talking about incredibly important and serious issues. And I had one instance where it was very interesting, because I had convened a meeting, and it was a meeting of Security Council Ambassadors to discuss a really important Council issue, that at one point, one of the men in the room, turned and asked if I would get him a coffee. And I was so taken aback, and I got him the coffee. And, you know, as I gotten older, I've realized, no, I'm not in the room to get the coffee. I mean, I came up with the idea to find a way to get around an impasse and got the people in the room and worked really hard. And I realized that, you know, through having the privilege of being able to know people like Ambassador Taylor, that there are roadblocks that you will face, there are impasses, there are people who question your ability, you will question your own ability. And one of the most important things that a mentor can do is to say, you might not see the potential in yourself. But I see that potential, and I'm going to continue to be here as that voice and that person, you know, behind you saying 'you can do this, keep going.' And I think especially for so many young girls, in the world today and around the world today, we need to have people like that.
And then we need to have people who remain as trailblazers, there are still too few women in positions of influence around the world, be it in the public sector, private sector, multilateral organizations. And so let's celebrate those who have achieved and those who have the generosity of spirit to hold the hands of those who come behind them, because it is a long road. And I think we have to acknowledge that. So I'm just very grateful to be able to even have this conversation with Ambassador Taylor, because she has been really instrumental and just continuing to help me sustain my ability to do work in an area that really both personally resonates very deeply, but because it is also so personal and because of the nature of the the work, challenging to continue, and you need people like Ambassador Taylor, who are going to be there supporting you advocating for you.
Hannah Reinl
Wow, thanks for sharing those. I actually just finished reading a book by Gloria Steinem, who talks about the political power of self-esteem. And I think that what it comes back to what you're saying is, mentorship really has the potential to instill this sense of self-esteem and self-confidence in who you are mentoring. So thank you for sharing that. So Ambassador Taylor, would you like to add to this?
Michèle Taylor
First of all, I have to say, it's incredibly humbling to hear somebody that I admire so much talk about me as a mentor. So thank you for that, Naomi. And but I think it does speak to the importance of the informal ways that we mentor people. And I do want to talk about formal mentorship, a little bit in a minute. But you know, so often, I think we don't even recognize the effect that we can have, and the influence that we can have on others just by sharing our experiences. And so it's nice to hear that works and helps people do this - all of the work that women can and should be doing. Personally, I mentor my team in Geneva, and also our teams in Washington, who helped to draft our remarks and statements and so forth, on remaining gender responsive, and I think that's, that's one of those kinds of small, informal ways that I'm able to mentor the people that do the work around going back to the Human Rights Council.
But I also think, you know, and Naomi touched on this, that mentorship is a way that we can overcome so many barriers. I did a lot of research when, I like Naomi, as a theoretic mathematician, found myself virtually all the time as the only woman in the classroom, professional spaces on a team of professors. And I really was very mindful that I was coming up against a wide variety of prejudices about whether or not I even belonged in the space. But also questioned really what it was it about me that allowed me to be that that one woman and so I did some research, I'd also been a psychology major, I did some research on what is our sort of the determining factors for women who end up being successful in non-traditional spaces. And the most prevalent predictor was a strong, assertive personality, so not aggressiveness, but assertiveness.
And so I think that kind of goes back to what Naomi was saying about developing confidence that when we feel comfortable, and we can assert ourselves, we're far more likely to show up in spaces where we don't see ourselves represented. But having said that, I think when we get there, we do also have a responsibility then to share the secrets of the trade, if you will, with those who come behind us. There's kind of this old adage about what happens around the water cooler or on the golf course. Often, I think, men because they have been in leadership and been in these spaces for so long, they're sharing the inside knowledge with one another without even recognizing that they're doing that. So, as women, I think, not only do we have to build each other up, but we have to share the sort of the technical details. And I think we have to, and this goes along with the assertiveness, we also have to be willing to say the things that maybe women aren't supposed to say. An example is actually when Naomi and I were together on the Committee on Conscience, talking about the crisis in Syria, and people around the room were lamenting how the world wasn't responding to, you know, the horrific photographs that we were seeing of literally dead children on a beach. And I was frankly, tired of having a conversation that wasn't going anywhere. And so I spoke up and talked about the economic realities of 5 million refugees flooding into Europe, and that maybe if we talk to European leaders, about what that would mean for them, and for, you know, their responsibility to their own people, that we would have a different response in terms of the human rights crisis. And people were pretty shocked that a woman would say something so insensitive. But why can't that be the kind of thing that a woman says?
Having said that, I think that the converse is true as well. Like I said earlier, men being socialized to think that certain things are feminine, and certain things are masculine, both men and women suffer, when that's the case. So I'm also a huge advocate for cross-gender mentoring. I think that strong women should be mentoring men, and helping them to understand that emotion, and particularly having a strong emotional quotient and really understanding how to read the reactions and interactions that they have with people can be such a strong leadership skill. That's just one very small example. Mentoring women as well, and like I said, sharing those trade secrets that maybe they share with other men without even thinking about it. So I am a huge advocate for mentorship. I have people like Naomi that I think maybe I don't even realize that I'm mentoring, but I also establish real structured mentoring relationships with sometimes young people, sometimes my peers. I get as much out of being a mentor as they do out of being mentored, so highly recommend it for everyone,
Hannah Reinl
I could just keep going. But I made many mental earmarks to hopefully take up the conversation another time again. We do have to end for today. So Michèle, Naomi, thank you so much for speaking with us today and for sharing not only your views as to how we can mainstream gender and the human rights conversation, but also your very personal stories. Here's to put in gender she's front and center at the session of the Human Rights Council, and especially here's to not getting coffee anymore. Thank you so much, Michèle and Naomi.
Michèle Taylor
Hear, hear! Thank you.
Naomi Kikoler
Thank you.