For the July 2023 episode of the IGC podcast, we are joined by Monica Ferro, (now former) Director of the UNFPA Geneva Office, and Mohinder Watson, founder of Action on Child, Early and Forced Marriage.
They discuss what bodily autonomy means, the obstacles that continue to bar women and girls from full reproductive and sexual health and rights, and how we can overcome them.
Hannah Reinl
Hello and welcome to the July episode of our IGC podcast. My name is Hannah Reinl and I'm with the International Gender Champions Secretariat in Geneva. Today, we will be discussing women's and girls' sexual and reproductive health and rights. For that, I am joined by two fantastic guests, Monica Ferro and Mohinder Watson. Monica Ferro has worked to promote equality, development and human rights for the past 20 years, most recently in her role as Director of the Geneva Office of the United Nations Population Fund, a position she took up in April 2017. Prior to joining UNFPA, Ms Ferro had a 20-year career of public service in Portugal, during which she served as the Secretary of State for National Defense, as a member of parliament, a university lecturer and researcher, a media personality and an activist. Quite a career. Welcome, Monica.
Monica Ferro
Thank you, Hannah, thank you.
Hannah Reinl
And we are also joined by Mohinder Watson. Mohinder is the founder of Action on Child, Early and Forced Marriage and the main Geneva UN representative for the International Council of Women. She holds a PhD in Health Sciences and a Master's in International Public Health. As an academic Mohinder has conducted extensive research on issues of child marriage, girls’ education and violence against women and girls. As an activist, she has urged policymakers to take action on these topics. Her most recent work showcases the link between climate change and child marriage. And I hope she gets to share a little bit about that. Welcome, Mohinder.
Mohinder Watson
Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here.
Hannah Reinl
And it's a pleasure to have you both.
So today's topic is “Empowered Choices: Promoting Women's and Girls’ Bodily Autonomy”. Both of you have done substantial work on the subject. Mohinder, maybe I can ask you first, what does the term “bodily autonomy” mean to you?
Mohinder Watson
Bodily autonomy for me means having control over your own body and what happens to it. It's all about freedom to make decisions, freedom to make choices in your life, whether that's about your marriage, whether it's about your sexual relationships, whether that's accessing sexual reproductive health care. But these decisions should be made with our own free will and not under coercion. But unfortunately, many women around the world don't have that right. And I can relate somewhat to that.
Growing up in a patriarchal society, I too, was denied a lot of choices and decisions in my own life. I grew up in a very patriarchal family where they decided from a young age that they would find somebody for me to marry. And although I protested, nobody was listening to me, they had already decided. Luckily for me, in the UK, the legal age of marriage is 18, so they couldn't go ahead, even though they promised me to somebody.
One day, I was quite shocked to find that I saw my family were buying large quantities of food and alcohol. And when I asked the family, what's this for? What's the special occasion? I was horrified to learn this was for my engagement to this man that I didn't know. And so you can imagine the horror I felt and I thought, oh, gosh, I have to do something straightaway. And I protested again. But this time I was given an ultimatum: Marry the man they chosen for me or get out the house and don't come back. I was caught between a rock and a hard place. I didn't know what human rights were, I had nobody to turn to, I had no money. Luckily for me, I got a place at university. So, thank God,education became my escape route. And so it's because of my experience that I went on to set up our NGO on child, early and forced marriage. So having choices, being able to make decisions about your own life and destiny, absolutely crucial.
Hannah Reinl
Thank you, Mohinder, for sharing the story. And I think it's absolutely amazing and impressive how you channeled your personal experience into your activism. Monica, what about you?
Monica Ferro
Let me start by thanking Mohinder for sharing this very compelling story and how you managed to exercise your bodily autonomy. And of course, you know, for us bodily autonomy means that we have the power, we have the agency, to make choices over our bodies and our futures without any form of violence or coercion. And of course, this includes, as Mohinder has mentioned, when, whether or with whom we have sex, it includes when, whether or with whom you want to become pregnant, and it means the freedom to go to a doctor whenever you need one. And UNFPA dedicated its Situation of the World Population Report in 2021 to measuring bodily autonomy, it's actually one of the indicators in the SDGs. And what we found was that more than half the women where data was available, didn't have bodily autonomy, they couldn't answer yes to this very simple three questions. And this has to do with barriers, it has to do with laws, it has to do with institution,with social norms. And this is why all the work that we are doing is aligned with what Mohinder was sharing was sharing about removing all obstacles or barriers, so that you can exercise your bodily autonomy so that you can map your your own future.
Hannah Reinl
The social norms limiting bodily autonomy are clearly very pervasive. You as head of the UNFPA Geneva office have been fighting for the last six years to change that. You're soon relocating to continue this important work as head of the UNFPA London office. So if I asked you to take stock of your time with UNFPA thus far, what gains do you see have we made globally in promoting women's and girls’ sexual and reproductive health and rights? And seeing what is happening all over the world right now, are you worried maybe that we are witnessing a global backsliding?
Monica Ferro
That's a very important question, Hannah, and it would provide us material for many, many podcasts. Let me start by what you just mentioned about social norms. One of the things that we often say is that most of the barriers that prevent women and girls from accessing their rights and choices, they have to do with social norms. And of course, social norms are important. They are the fabric of our societies. And I know it may seem daunting when we say let's change social norms, but the good thing is that social norms are constructed, they can be deconstructed. And one of the big inputs to deconstructing these norms, these patriarchal societies, happens here in Geneva. Geneva is the world hub for human rights, global health and humanitarian issues. And a lot of the work we've been doing, is to be celebrated, you know, the attention, the recognition that sexual reproductive health and rights are paramount for gender equality. The fact that we have so many human rights resolutions. The work of the Universal Periodic Review, of the special procedures, of the World Health Assembly, on highlighting the many challenges and the many opportunities on ending female genital mutilation, on ending child marriage, on positioning comprehensive sexuality education as an entry point to create societies that are more inclusive, that are more open, more respectful. The way comprehensive sexuality helps to end structural violence against women and girls and other identities. The work we've been doing on highlighting the challenges and the trends on teen pregnancy, the work that has been done, and I really have to celebrate this, on positioning menstrual health as a key issue for women. Not only menstrual behavior, because we really want it to be clear that all the issues, all the taboos, all the work that has to be done around menstruation, it has to do with health, it's a human rights issue. It's not a behavioral issue. It has to do with so many things from ending stigma, to guaranteeing access to menstrual products.
The work we did, and Hannah, you've been included on that, on sexual reproductive health and climate change, highlighting how climate change is impacting more dramatically, women and girls and people in vulnerable situations. And also, if I can highlight one of my big celebrations for Geneva, how women’s and girls’ participation has been paramount to so many processes, you know, understanding that it's not about giving voice, it's about giving a seat at the table. Women and girls, they have their own voices, they have their own agency, we just need to make sure that they have a seat at the table where decisions are made, where the programs are designed. And also, when we evaluate these programs to make sure that we are on track to creating a world with more dignity for all.
Still what we see and addressing your issue on the backsliding, what we see is that despite the fact that maternal mortality has been reduced all over the world, we still see that 800 women die every day, from causes related to pregnancy, childbirth, and postpartum. And you know, every two minutes a women dies of these causes. And we know how to prevent them. 99% of these deaths occur in developing countries. So, it's not that we don't know what to do; we know what to do. And I think the women and girls of this world will not forgive us if we don't implement what needs to be done. And something that really shocks me is when you look at the numbers of teen pregnancy. We've highlighted last year that about half of all pregnancies are unplanned. I'm not saying they are unwanted. I'm saying they are unplanned, which shows again, the lack of bodily autonomy. But, Hannah and Mohinder, half a million of these pregnancies and births happen in the body of girls between 10 and 14 years. There is no consent included. There is no autonomy. And how it impacts and derails the plans for the future of this girl is really disturbing.
So what we see is an attempt, a populist attempt, to link concerns that are very noble like climate change or the fluctuation on population numbers, trying to link it with feminism or trying to link it with national values and cultures, and they have nothing to do with it. We are just talking about rights, we are talking about human rights and human rights are not negotiable. And for sure, sexual and reproductive health and rights are non-negotiable. And this is the call that I would make from Geneva, which again, is the hub for human rights, global health and humanitarian issues.
Hannah Reinl
Mohinder, now over to you. You have also been a relentless advocate for action towards eliminating early, child and forced marriage. What are the main challenges that you see these days? I believe Monica has touched on a few already. And how are you and your organization working to address them?
Mohinder Watson
Thank you very much. You're right, Monica has touched on some of them. And there are so many, but going through them, firstly, I want to talk about the sheer size of the problem. We have to get into our heads that 12 million girls a year are still getting married, each year. And we know that even though over the past decade, we've managed to reduce 25 million fewer child marriages, that's being offset by things that we didn't expect. For example, the COVID pandemic has now resulted in an extra we think, possibly 20 million child marriages. We also have conflict, which right gives rise to more child marriages. So we've seen the situation in Afghanistan, in Ethiopia. And our latest work shows that climate change is also giving rise to more child marriages.
We also have to consider the complexity underlying child marriage. There are so many variables involved. And it happens in over 100 countries around the world and in different contexts. So it can be just a traditional practice handed down through generations. As we've said, it can happen during conflict when people, parents, are trying to protect their children from sexual violence. It can happen in climate change as a coping mechanism to deal with economic adversity.
It's very difficult to address patriarchy and social norms as Monica has said, these are deeply ingrained. And I know that even from my own family, I have a brother who's never spoken to me for 40 years. This shows you how deep these feelings are. But there's always going to be resistance for change, changing mindsets, changing attitudes is hard. There's widespread gender discrimination, again, which is difficult to overcome, we still have some preference, and women and girls are still accorded a low value in society. There are other of course, socio economic factors, such as where people live in the rural areas, their level of education.
In terms of normative frameworks, we know that the legal ban on child marriage is not universal. Some countries don't even have a lower limit for child marriage. And even when laws exist, there are loopholes that allow them to circumvent and this can be getting permission from the courts or from the parents. So often enforcement is actually the problem, it's weak. The elephant in the room is always poverty. At the base of child marriage, most of the time, you will find poverty, but it's something we don't talk about, but we need to confront head on. We need a fairer system for the distribution of wealth, we need more social protection for the most vulnerable, marginalized, often those working in the informal sector. We need, of course, free education to keep girls in school. Hopefully, these can lead to greater gender equality and a fairer and more prosperous society.
Lastly, I just want to touch on the lack of sufficient quality disaggregated data, because that's hugely important. With so many variables involved in child marriage, which interact in different ways in different amounts. This means that you cannot copy and paste something that works in one setting, and then go and apply it to another. And that means we need to understand these intersecting vulnerabilities in each context. So, we need high quality disaggregated data. And this can give visibility to where the gender inequalities are and therefore we can target and then we also build evidence to convince policymakers and also allows us to measure progress. So hugely important.
In terms of what we do, as Monica said, Geneva is the hub for human rights. So, we engage in international advocacy. So here in Geneva, New York, Brussels, and give presentations all over the world to keep our marriage in the spotlight. With so many competing interests at the moment, so many issues, which one do people concentrate on? But this is something we've been working on for 30 years, and we will have to do that for at least another 30 more. So the other thing we do is try to do some research and look for gaps where our knowledge is not so clear. And we've done that on things like child widows earlier on. And we've also now just done this with climate change and child marriage, and very much hope that that will be of use to many organizations. And we have the opportunity to present this to the CEDAW committee, and hopefully also distribute a policy brief through the Gender Champions. So as a small organization, we do what we can with resources we have, and we partner with UNFPA, UNICEF, UN Women or the rest, because we're all at the end of the day tackling the same issue. We're all on the same side, regardless of our size and our resources. We want the same things. So, I'm very happy to have worked with Monica over the last few years and look forward to continuing to work with UNFPA.
Hannah Reinl
Yeah, and you both have certainly got your work cut out for you. You've made it very clear that what we're up against are not necessarily biological, medical, technical challenges. But what we have to confront are the complex social norms that limit women’s and girls’ reproductive health and rights, the global crises, such as climate change, or the COVID pandemic that reinforce already existing issues. And also, Monica, and I found that very interesting, the appropriation of the topic by seemingly feminist agendas that actually end up being not about championing women's and girls’ bodily autonomy at all. So when it comes to this massive task that we have in front of us of reweaving the social fabric that underlies women and girls’ bodily autonomy, and their sexual and reproductive health and rights, do you have any recommendations for other Gender Champions and for our larger IGC community, as to how we can each do our part to effectively promote this topic?
Mohinder Watson
I think one of the most effective ways we can promote women and girls’ bodily autonomy is going back to some basic principles of human rights. If we start by promoting, protecting, respecting, and realizing the human rights of women and girls all over the world, wherever they happen to be, particularly those that are most far, most vulnerable, most remote, most marginalized, I think we can do a lot there. And also by eliminating violence against women, because that is a huge barrier to gender equality, and bodily autonomy. So, I think going back to the basics of human rights, protection, and eliminating violence against women, those would be my two key areas to focus on.
Hannah Reinl
Thank you, now over to you, Monica as a longtime Gender Champion.
Monica Ferro
So that's a very challenging question, because it requires that we have to do some self-assessment and that we have also to understand that we need to continuously educate ourselves. Truth is that one of the things I found most stressful in Geneva is how some people tend to see human rights as a geographically based or originated agenda, when actually when you do your own research, you'll understand that the human rights principles, they stem from all over the world, you know, you have documents, highlighting what are the basics of the human rights from all regions in the world. So it's not a defined agenda. And for sure, it's not an agenda of one against the other, it's precisely the opposite. And this is the reason why the UN was created. So you know, to establish a platform where we could start a dialogue with all countries in the world, with all sensitivities in the world, with all cultures in the world. And I think this is something that should be very close to us. Because human rights are really universal, and they are inherent to us, we are born with human rights.
But of course, as Mohinder was saying, we understand that the multiple challenges we have to face and thank you for highlighting COVID conflict, climate change how that has impacted on the work that we have to do here. And I'm always saying that we are now in a moment where we've just celebrated the fact that our human family is 8 billion people. And this is a reason to celebrate. But of course we understand because of all the crisis that are ongoing that this creates some anxiety in people. And we understand that it's very hard to be optimistic, when at the same time we have so many reasons to celebrate, you know, just being a billion people in the planet means such a huge success when it comes to medicine, to education, to health, to technology. So we should be all living a better life today. And this is, Mohinder, maybe I'm going to echo what you just said, is going back to the principles.
So if I have to give an advice to our Gender Champions it’s focus on data, disaggregated data, we need to know where people are and who they are. You know, one of the first tag lines of UNFPA was, because everybody counts. And this is if you count everybody, people will be taken into account when you are designing policies, when you are designing recommendations or resolutions. So my first focus would be on data. Then, listen to the stories, listen to the stories, listen to the stories that we bring you here in Geneva from the country operations, from the stakeholders we are partnering with, and then understand the impact. Because my last message would be: educate ourselves, build networks, understand the underlying causes of gender inequality, of poverty, as you just mentioned Mohinder. Let's understand what stands between people and their rights and their choices. And then, in the end of the day, just keep reminding yourself that what we do matters, what we do really matters for millions of women and girls, and other people in vulnerable situations. And having said this, this has been the honor and the privilege of my life to be here in Geneva. And of course, I look forward to the many, many successes that Geneva will put forward in this global conversation.
Hannah Reinl
Monica, Mohinder, thank you both so much for joining us today, for sharing how we can educate ourselves to make the world safer for women and girls. It's been a real pleasure. And Monica, thanks for all your time and effort and energy that you gave to the cause in Geneva. Best of luck for what's next.
Monica Ferro
Thank you!
Mohinder Watson
Thank you very much.