For the July 2024 episode of the IGC podcast, we are joined by Phil Lynch, Executive Director of International Service for Human Rights (ISHR), and Sadeeq Abioye, Programs Officer at Gender Mobile Initiative, Nigeria, who are participating in the IGC Youth Champions Programme. They discuss the application of feminist leadership principles by men, debunk some common myths and misconceptions around feminist leadership, and share insights and examples from their experience of promoting gender equality and inclusive leadership.
TRANSCRIPT
Aditi Kekre
Hello and welcome to a new episode of the IGC Podcast. I’m Aditi Kekre and I’m with the IGC Secretariat. Today we are going to highlight the Youth Champions Programme which is a six-month long mutual mentoring exchange that connects 10 Geneva-based Gender Champions with 10 young gender equality activists from around the world. The programme seeks to promote an intergenerational dialogue between participants, amplify the voices of the young activists and facilitate learning experience for our established Gender Champions. For our first episode, we are joined by Phil Lynch and Sadeeq Abioye with whom we are going to discuss about: “How can men apply feminist leadership principles?".
Phil is the Executive Director of the International Service for Human Rights, providing solidarity and support to human rights defenders and strengthening laws and policies for their recognition and protection. Before joining ISHR in 2013, Phil led the Human Rights Law Centre, and Homeless Law, in Australia. He is an Advisory Committee member of World Bicycle Relief and loves family, mountains, cycling and a good coffee! Welcome to the podcast, Phil!
Phil Lynch
Thank you very much for having me, Aditi. It's a pleasure to be here.
Aditi Kekre
Sadeeq is a Community Activist and Service Specialist from Nigeria. He works with Gender Mobile Initiative as a Programs Officer to build equitable systems, facilitate access to justice, forge collaborative advocacy, and promote education and community ownership with a focus on implementing the Agenda 2030. A welcome to you as well, Sadeeq!
Sadeeq Abioye
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Aditi Kekre
So, I would like to start by asking you, Sadeeq, how would you define feminist leadership for our listeners, and why is there a need for it?
Sadeeq Abioye
So, before I define feminist leadership, we need to also explain what feminism is. Now feminism, to me, is a school of thought that believes that we need to have an equitable society for all individuals regardless of their gender. Now, if we have understood what feminism is, then we need to understand who a feminist is. A feminist is somebody who believes in that school of thought, that we need to have equitable society for all regardless of gender. Now, leadership is an approach being used at the organisational level of work and in life. Now taking a look at feminist leadership, and we will see feminist leadership is an approach being used by a feminist to ensure that there is justice, finance and equity in our society. So, that is how we define feminist leadership- as an approach being used by a feminist to ensure that we have an equitable society for all regardless of the gender or other social identities.
Aditi Kekre
Thank you so much for explaining that. Now that we have a brief overview of what feminism is and what feminist leadership entails, Phil, what role do you believe men can play in applying feminist leadership principles?
Phil Lynch
I would very broadly agree with Sadeeq’s definition of feminist leadership. I mean, for me, at its most fundamental, it's about committing to practicing, promoting and also being held accountable to principles of non-discrimination, diversity, equality, inclusion and justice, and for male leaders, or for any leader wanting to exercise principles of feminist leadership, I think there are at least eight key elements.
The first is that feminist leadership involves sharing leadership. It recognises that different leaders bring different experiences, approaches and expertise, and that the best leadership is provided, and the best decisions are made through collective wisdom and through collaborative decision-making.
Secondly, I think that feminist leadership values diversity. It recognises, it respects and it harnesses the value of diverse identities and lived experiences. And I think that it recognises that representation matters, particularly in positions of leadership.
Thirdly, I think that feminist leadership involves promoting well-being, both well-being for self and well-being for others. And when I talk about well-being, I'm talking about it in a really holistic sense, encompassing not only physical well-being, but also mental, psychosocial, financial and other forms of well-being and a really empathetic approach to colleagues. A former Board Chair of ISHR, Lucia Nader taught me a lot about the idea of regenerative activism, and the idea that for leadership and activism to be sustainable, it needs to involve practices of nurturing, of celebration and joy, and I think that's really critical.
For me, the fourth key element of feminist leadership is about ensuring transparency and being an accountable leader. It involves high levels of transparency, because we know that transparency contributes to fairness and equity and service, surfaces biases and prejudices and contributes to accountability.
I think a fifth key element is that feminist leaders provide trust and respect. Feminist leaders know that you get the best out of people and eople thrive when they work in an environment that provides freedom, that provides autonomy, that provides responsibility and that provides support, and people don't tend to thrive in environments of hierarchy or command or control.
Sixthly, I think feminist leadership is committed to combating discrimination and addressing bias and privilege. It involves taking, I guess, a zero-tolerance approach to all forms of prohibited discrimination and harassment, and also recognises and seeks to address issues of bias and encourage a reflection on inherited privilege and entrenched power, and ultimately a dismantling of inherited privilege and entrenched power.
Another element which I've learned from women leaders, both within the ISHR Secretariat and on the ISHR Board, is the importance of being what we call “vulnerageous.” Basically, it involves having the courage to be vulnerable, having the courage to be humble, having the courage to take responsibility for mistakes and to share and continuously learn, which really involves exercising humility.
And eighth, and finally, I think that feminist leadership involves promoting safety and inclusion. It means that you are responsible for creating and nurturing an environment in which people feel safe, respected, included, and really ultimately able to fully and authentically express themselves and their identities.
So, I think that to answer your question briefly, yes, men can be feminist leaders if they commit to exercising and displaying those kinds of characteristics in leadership.
Aditi Kekre
Thanks so much for providing all those insightful elements and also sharing your learnings with us. I'm sure this job would come with its own challenges. So, what are some of the common myths or misconceptions that might make men more hesitant to embrace feminist leadership?
Sadeeq Abioye
There are some myths and misconceptions that make men more hesitant to embrace feminist leadership. First, they tend to say that feminism is only for women. So, there's this belief that feminism is only for women and it's not for men. That's why men are very hesitant to accept feminism and the approach of feminist leadership. At the same time, they see feminists as “men haters"... And this is because of the fact that historically, women and girls are marginalised in a way, and feminists try to see how they can provide solutions to women's problem. Third, they believe that feminism ignores men and boys issue. Now take a look at most of these social amenities or programmes being rolled out by different organisations directed towards women and the boys. The men are not feeling isolated or feeling rejected that in their own society they are focusing more on men and women. So, they are not feeling that, oh, feminists who are using the leadership approach at the same time are ignoring their own issues. Meanwhile, there are also issues of data inequalities, some of social justice, and other inequalities in society. I think then you see that feminism is trying to feminise masculinity. In some other parts of the world, you see that men have this leadership power, and they believe that the feminist leadership approach is trying to oppress their own voice as a man.
So, some of these reasons are why men are kind of hesitant to accept feminism and, at the same time, to use a feminist leadership approach within their organisation. And most of the time you see that they don't always preach to support women, and don't always try to see women in leadership positions... If we are able to ensure that we preach feminism and we use feminist leadership as an approach for creating an equal society, I see that they will tend to accept that approach and see that it's trying to create an equal society for all and not for a particular gender. So that is it for me.
Aditi Kekre
Thanks for stressing that feminist leadership is not just for women and girls. Phil, as the executive director of ISHR, how have you been implementing feminist leadership? If you can share one or two examples with us?
Phil Lynch
I guess the first thing is, I'm constantly learning, learning from people across the organisation. I guess some of the greatest insights around empowering and accountable leadership have come from staff that have joined the organisation more recently and bring new ideas and new perspectives and challenge orthodoxies and assumptions. But we have at ISHR, a number of structures in place and commitments and values, I think, which promote principles of feminist leadership. The first is that, as a matter of policy, that there should be gender diversity as between the chair of the ISHR Board and the Executive Director of the organisation, and it's been my real privilege to work with and learn from some amazing feminist Chairs of the ISHR Board. I referred earlier to Lucia Nader, who is a Brazilian woman human rights defender and activist and organisational development expert, who has taught me a lot about leadership, and similarly, I've learned enormously from our current Board Chair, Vrinda Grover, who's an Indian human rights lawyer and also a member of the Commission of Inquiry on Russia and Ukraine.
We also have moved at ISHR in recent years from a, I guess, a hierarchical leadership structure to much more of a shared leadership model. And so we now have an executive leadership team comprising two deputy Co-Executive Directors, Pooja Patel and Marina Dailly, who lead on programs and advocacy and operations, respectively, as well as a New York Director, Madeleine Sinclair and together with me, the four of us comprise the ISHR executive leadership team, and all major decisions and policies are discussed and determined by that executive leadership team in ways which ensure that diverse perspectives and experiences are brought to bear on those decisions. Ultimately, I think, making those decisions wiser and more accountable.
Aditi Kekre
The shared leadership model particularly reminded me of how the Youth Champions Programme itself tries to transgress from the traditional hierarchical model of mentoring and tries to promote more of a mutual mentoring exchange as well. This also, like your answer also reflects the need for having more feminist leaders as heads of organisation as they would, in a way, contribute to creating healthier and inclusive work environments. Since it is said that positive role models are crucial for driving this change, do you both also have a role model that inspires you?
Sadeeq Abioye
So, for me, I don't have a role model that is inspiring me in terms of feminist leadership... I am motivating myself. What if my role model changes tomorrow? Now, when I view my whole leadership approach in terms of applying feminist leadership, I've been motivating myself because I understand the issues on the ground in terms of gender inequalities. I understand that there are all these issues of gender inequalities, social justice, issues of stigma, discrimination, then patriarchal norms. So, is there anyone besides me as a person to provide a solution to these issues? Trying to motivate myself, so not looking at what other people are doing… I believe that individuals may change with time. So, for me, I don't have a role model, but I believe in myself, and I believe in trying to motivate myself to create that equitable society for all.
Phil Lynch
Yeah, and as I mentioned earlier, in response to an earlier question, I've been really privileged to work at the Board and Secretariat level with some amazing feminist leaders, all of whom I would consider role models, and all of whom I've learned from. From Vrinda Grover, I've learnt the importance of being highly consistent and highly principled. I think, from Lucia, I've learned a lot about the importance of a holistic approach to well-being and the importance of nurturing oneself and one's colleagues in order to be a sustainable and impactful organisation. And then at the staff level, I've learned a lot from Marina, who heads our operations, about the importance of transparency and accountability, and from Pooja, who leads our programmes in advocacy and has driven a lot of the diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives at ISHR, the importance of representation and the fact that representation and diversity in representation really matters.
Aditi Kekre
Thanks for sharing that. It was great to know that you also derive your motivation from yourself as well as from other people. I have a final question for you two - In one sentence, what would you want our Gender Champions to take away from this conversation?
Sadeeq Abioye
For me, I believe in men championing feminism. Now, if you take a look at some parts of the world, you see that feminism... has been seen as a women’s cause. Now, if men are championing feminist leadership, you see that in our society, there'll be equality, there'll be equity for everyone. Not seeing somebody as being lower to somebody else, not seeing somebody as being oppressed, in the sense that everybody has their voice to speak out when they face similar challenges... So, what I want Gender Champions to take from our podcast today is that (we need to) to be advocating for men to be championing feminism and feminist leadership approaches. Men need to understand that if you give power to women, giving them a chance to be in leadership positions, to also implement their own solutions instead of solving their problems by themselves. So, looking at that from the women’s angle, from the men’s angle…you see that we have a collective solution towards a particular problem, or towards societal problems.
Phil Lynch
And for me, as I mentioned at the outset, feminist leadership really involves committing and being held accountable to principles of non-discrimination, diversity, equality, inclusion and justice. And if we do practice, promote and be held accountable to those principles, we will be better leaders, we will create better organisations, we will create better, stronger, more cohesive and more inclusive communities, and ultimately, we will live in and share a better world.
Aditi Kekre
Phil, Sadeeq, thank you so much for joining us today and shedding light on this very important topic.
Sadeeq Abioye
Thank you very much for having me on this podcast.
Phil Lynch
Thanks so much Sadeeq and thank you very much Aditi.