For the November 2024 episode of the IGC podcast, we are joined by Labbi Karmacharya, data scientist and IGC Youth Champion, and Sameer Chauhan, Director of the UN International Computing Centre (UNICC). Together, they discuss the pivotal role of intergenerational leadership and collaboration in driving gender equality, and highlight key priorities and actions to foster the digital inclusion of women and girls.
TRANSCRIPT
Clara
Hello and welcome to a new episode of the IGC Podcast. My name is Clara Laviale and I'm with the International Gender Champions Secretariat in Geneva.
This episode is part of the Youth Champions Programme, which connects 10 Geneva-based Gender Champions with 10 young gender equality activists from around the world. The programme seeks to promote intergenerational dialogue for gender equality, amplify the voices of youth activists, and cultivate learning experiences for our established Gender Champions. Today, we are joined by two of our programme participants, Labbi Karmacharya and Sameer Chauhan, who are going to delve into the topic of intergenerational leadership in gender advocacy.
Labbi brings her experience as a data scientist to her current roles as a Research Fellow at Equitech Futures and a Lecturer at Islington College. She has over three years of experience in supervised learning and data analysis. She volunteers with code for Nepal to build a digitally empowered society and is also a co-founder of Digital Kala Initiatives, which aims to promote digital and data literacy, especially for underprivileged populations. Her expertise lies in the data science domain, focusing on utilising data for informed decision-making and advancing digital empowerment initiatives. Welcome to the IGC podcast, Labbi!
Labbi
Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here.
Clara
Our second guest is Sameer Chauhan. Sameer is the Director of the United Nations International Computing Centre since December 2019, leading the organisation in its mission to provide innovative digital solutions and cybersecurity expertise across the UN system. The UNICC was established in 1971 and is now the largest strategic partner for over 90 UN entities by helping them achieve their mandates through transformational digital tools and programmes. Sameer is a dedicated Gender Champion and a member of the IGC Geneva Steering Group. Everyone who has met him also knows he is a tireless advocate for the empowerment of women and girls in the digital world. A warm welcome to you as well, Sameer.
Sameer
Lovely to be here. Thanks for having me.
Clara
So let's dive in. Labbi, let me turn to you first. In your opinion, what are the unique strengths different generations can bring to gender advocacy and how can these diverse perspectives be leveraged effectively in the gender equality movement?
Labbi
I feel like each generation contributes unique strengths to gender advocacy. It brings that vital mix that is useful for the change that is needed. So the older generation offers invaluable experience and historical values, which is very much necessary to continue and the lessons from the past and the challenges on: What are the things that are correct versus what are the the lessons so that we don't repeat the mistakes of the past and that we could build on the success that have come before us. I feel like with the younger generation they’re full of energy for innovations and they're passionate. I feel like they are not afraid to challenge the status quo. So yeah, for me, this generation often brings fresh perspective and it's more attuned to the intersection of gender with other social issues, could be race, climate change or simply digital rights. So for me, their energy and creativity are crucial for driving the movement forward. But I feel like these strengths are equally needed because we need to bridge the gap in order to maybe we could foster like intergenerational dialogues where all voices are heard and respected and this collaboration maybe could allow us to blend the wisdom of the past with the innovation of the present and the future. So when generations work together like mentorship from the older generation and like innovation from the younger yeah, this could help in building a more resilient movement of addressing the complexity of gender inequality globally.
Sameer
And if I can jump in, just to complement what Labbi said, interacting with her especially made me realise that we operate out of different baselines. My generation and people my age, we expect there to be a gender divide, we expect there to be a fight for equality and what I see is the energy and the enthusiasm coming from the younger generation, which demonstrates that they are operating from a very different baseline. So I had to rethink my working assumptions, that was one. The second thing I noticed in terms of intergenerational divide is this ‘can do’ attitude that the youth have, whereas sometimes as we get older, we become a little more jaded. So we decide this much progress is sufficient, whereas with the youth and the energy they bring to the table, they're aiming for the stars, they're aiming for true equality. So from my perspective, my generation has to be there to support them, support their enthusiasm and kind of like the relationship Labbi and I have as mentor and mentee is to help them find the right path and the right channels through which they can use that energy to achieve their objectives.
Clara
Thank you so much for highlighting that really important point of the need for more collaboration across different generations and also the strengths that all of these generations bring as well to the table. This leads us to the second question. Sameer, in your experience, what are some of the challenges in fostering intergenerational leadership? And have you found ways to address them in your own work?
Sameer
It's a great question. Thanks for asking. I can speak for myself. Personally, I think one of the challenges I see is that my generation - and especially in the context in which I operate, which is in the UN - it's very hierarchical in its thinking. So when you're looking at fostering intergenerational leadership, you want the youth to be encouraged and for them to step up and be empowered. We are playing by a different set of rules. We are expecting them to follow the UN processes or the UN hierarchy, but the current youth, this current generation, is much more willing to ignore all of that and say it's the best ideas that should win. It's the energy that should drive things forward. So for me, what it means is I have to acknowledge that my day job may operate a certain way. But to truly foster intergenerational leadership, to encourage youth leaders like Labbi, what I need to do is make sure I can give them forums, where they can express themselves, where they have a voice and also more importantly, let them lead. Let them lead the conversations. Let them propose new ideas. Let them propose solutions of how we can achieve equality. And start to play more of a supporting role, rather than a leadership role myself, I think that's the best thing I can do to foster that leadership from the youth today.
Labbi
I agree with what Sameer said. And I feel like he's such an example on the whole thing of bridging the challenges because the mentorship journey has, like, proved that. And for me, something that I would also like to add on this is how there's cultural difference in work styles. For example, the older generation tend to be a bit strict and disciplined while the younger generation values creativity and fun in their work. So it's not like they are not committed. It's just that they also want that fun element. And for me, I feel like one of the examples is one of my friends who's a scout leader, what they do is they literally do the meeting in a swimming pool and it's a fun thing, but then it's a formal thing, so that's like something that I really enjoyed when I first heard about it. So maybe there's, like, this change that needs to be accepted in both like learning and unlearning from both of the generations is something that maybe we could do.
Clara
Thank you so much for these insightful reflections. So both of you have been strong advocates for closing the digital gender gap and are working towards increasing the participation of women and girls in tech. What are your top three priorities when it comes to ensuring digital inclusion?
Labbi
Ensuring digital inclusion, especially for women and girls, is very crucial in today's world where technology plays such a central role in every aspect of life, right? But I can speak on how can we actually work towards bridging this gap is for example, I work to address these challenges. We have Digital Kala which is an initiative focused on digital literacy and empowerment, which me and my team we initiated from last December 2023. And what we do is we have three key priorities that we keep in mind when we help to close the digital gender gap and ensure that women and girls are not left behind. The first is access to technology and resources, which has always been our top priority. We feel like without the necessary tools be it laptops or softwares or smartphones or reliable Internet connections, women and girls can't fully participate and the place that I come from, not a lot of us have that privilege. So what we did was we tried to get the fundings and even this July and the last summer, we tried to give the sufficient amount of devices to the girls so that they could use it for the better opportunity. And the second one is the skills and the digital literacy and skills streaming, we've been very much focused on it and I feel like a lot of us should come in hand and do more on this sector because there are so many places we haven’t touched. So simple things like basic literacy to more advanced topics - could be coding, data science, cybersecurity - introducing this just to women and girls, because especially from the place that I'm coming from, we don't encourage women and girls to go into tech from the small ages. So it just feels like we need to come in between and then like tell them about, these are the things that are also available here. And maybe the third would be creating safe and supportive online environments because it's very crucial for digital inclusion including not having to face the unique challenges that could be like cyber bullying, harassment or gender-based violence. The girls and the women should feel safe to express themselves, learn and grow.
Sameer
I could not agree more with what Labbi has said and just to build on that, I think sitting where I do, the first thing for me is we need to acknowledge that there's a gap, that there is a divide and it has a very strong negative impact. So we need to acknowledge that there is a gender gap. The digital world we're building for the future is imbalanced. It's not catering to everybody's needs and we need to remedy that quickly. So the sense of urgency and acknowledging that there's a huge impact of not having that balance is very important. But how do we address it? I think for me personally leading the organisation, we are one of the only pure play tech organisations in the UN. My challenge is to find role models. So my goal is to demonstrate to young women and girls that see, see here you go. Here are role models of women who are leading in technology. So I think that's very key is to find role models who will then encourage more and more young women and girls to get into stem into technology. The second learning I have is that we need to be relentless. There is no straightforward path. For every step you take, there's either a backlash or some unintended consequences, so you need to remain laser sharp and focused on the fact that the strategic objective here is to achieve parity, is to achieve balance, is to have diverse points of view in the organisation as you build digital, so we have to be relentless about that long term goal and work towards it. And if certain approaches take you so far, and then they stop, you have to look at what others are doing. So that's the third lesson is look at what others are doing, what led them to success, and can we adopt those approaches or can we build on them, enhance them, modify them for a purpose so we can continue down that journey of bridging that gap. Thanks.
Clara
Thank you so much for that. Lastly, if you could share one piece of advice with international leaders such as our Gender Champions, what would it be?
Labbi
If there is one piece of advice to international leaders and Gender Champions, it would be to ensure that these efforts are sustainable and scalable. We've made, like, significant strides in gender advocacy, it's not that fast of a stride, but we are making the improvement and we want to make sure that these initiatives are not just impactful in short term, but also have the reach to creating lasting change. So this means thinking beyond immediate outcomes and investing in systems and structures and capacity that can continue to drive gender equality long after a specific programme or funding cycle ends, so I feel like that could be something that needs to be there and. Yeah, I think that would be one piece and another would be maybe also utilizing more of the alumni base like for example, one of the things that I really enjoy is working with the organizations and see how they utilize or they use the skills of the alumni to create a community. So that they could come back and you know give something to the organization that they get something out of.
Sameer
I wanted to mention that one message I would have or piece of advice for international leaders is to acknowledge the youth of today are much more aware, much more clued in, much more savvy, than we were when we were their age. Just because it's a different world, it's much more interconnected, they have information at their disposal. They are digitally savvy, so they understand the world much better at the age they are at today than we did when we were their age, because the world wasn't as open then. So we need to welcome their thoughts, we need to acknowledge that they have a much more positive outlook because they have yet to live out their lives, so they have great suggestions, great ideas of how the world should fix the big problems we have today. We need to welcome their feedback, welcome their inputs, and if it's more than one idea, like Labbi, it proves my point, she had two great ideas. We should welcome that to say. Great. Give me more. Give me more ideas, more suggestions and help adopt those ideas. I think that's what we should do as Gender Champions and international leaders is create that forum, create that space where the youth have a stronger voice and a chance to really implement their ideas. I would mention that the UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres has mentioned recently that about half the population of the world is below 30. So we do need the youth, which is more than about half the population of the world, to have those opportunities where they can start to drive where is the world going rather than the older generations, including people like myself, the current, if you will, the Gender Champions, international leaders, we need to create that space for the youth and that would be my one piece of advice.
Clara
Sameer, Labbi, thank you so much for joining us today.
Sameer
Thank you. It's been a pleasure.
Labbi
Yeah. Thank you so much for the opportunity to be a part of the podcast today. It was a privilege to share my thoughts on the intergenerational leadership and gender advocacy. I've really enjoyed our conversation.